Sunday, February 21, 2010


GEORGE TOWN: A simmering feud between senior members of the Penang State Symphony Orchestra and Chorus (Pessoc) and its new board reached a crescendo when Pessoc officials went to the musicians’ homes and took back musical instruments they have been using for years.

The members, already unhappy with the board for cancelling the annual Pesta Music Camp and Concert last year, said Pessoc officials came to their homes to take back the instruments they had had for years.

It is learnt that the senior members were also unhappy at being asked to re-fill application forms as part of the board’s restructuring exercise.

Bassoonist Khoo Swee Hong claimed that a Pessoc administrator visited her home as well as the homes of two other senior members.

“She came to see us last Friday, with another lady whose position in Pessoc we aren’t even sure of.

“The bassoon has been with me since 1995 so I don’t understand why they suddenly want it back,” Khoo said.

“It’s not that I don’t want to return it but the way they have treated me and others who borrowed the state’s instruments is insulting,” she told reporters at the Pessoc office in Dewan Sri Pinang here yesterday.

Musician Stefan Dawson said he felt “humiliated” by the treatment.

“They made me feel like I had stolen the French horn. I have been a member since I was in school and don’t deserve to be treated this way,” he said.

Jeremy Tan, who has played the clarinet in Pessoc since 1998, said he wasn’t home when they came.

Both Tan and Dawson returned the instruments yesterday.

June Ong, a former committee member of the orchestra, alleged that the new administration had “not bothered” to communicate with the senior members.

However, Pessoc personnel manager Sebina Pade said they had tried to get in touch with all members as part of the restructuring exercise.

“On Nov 12, the new chairman (Datin Seri Irene Yeap) informed all orchestra and choir members via e-mail that application forms would have to be refilled and submitted to update records.

“Those who didn’t fill in the forms were no longer considered members. We took the instruments back because they did not express any interest in taking part in Pessoc’s activities.

“They never replied to our calls or attempts to get in touch with them, so we had no choice but to go to their homes,” she said.

Yeap, who took over the helm of Pessoc on Aug 12 last year, also informed members that the board was deferring the 2009 Pesta to an unspecified date this year.

The camp, normally organised at the end of year, is the biggest annual event for the orchestra, and last year was the first time in 19 years it had been being cancelled.

Meanwhile, state Town and Country Planning, Housing and Arts Committee chairman Wong Hon Wai said he was willing to listen to the grouses of the senior members.


  1. I saw the above post on the net. It is the oddest press I have ever seen. At first I thought it is the management who put this small matter in the news to humiliate the ex-members.

    After I read, oh no! It is the ex-members themselves who put all these into the papers to humiliate themselves! What a news!

    From this article, I conclude:

    1. Musicians so poor can't afford to buy the instrument that he/she played for more than 10 years. Or they thought buying it is not worth it?

    2. What? Musicians moral value is so low, don't even understand that thing you borrow you have to return it?

    3. Oh my god! For more than 10 years they never renew their registration? Filling a form is such big deal. Maybe musicians seldom write anymore, that their real reason for not filling it is "actually I forgot how to hold the pen and write my own name!!"

    HAHAHAHAHAHA~~~~~~ Thanks to them we have some laughs in our dull lives!

    What an inside view for an outsider like me!

  2. Hey....totally agreed! That is what I think?

    The 3 words I have for them is "SHAME, SHAME and SHAME on you"

    Anyway, there is one matter you din mention, Big Mouth, the ex-librarian didn't get even one cent for his job. I wonder what happen. Why don't he just complain using his letter of appointment?

    Or, there are still stories behind it? They are not trustworthy I bet, the ex members I mean.

  3. Pity those youngsters. They got a bright future themselves. Why? Why they wanna do this? Spoiled their own image like that....


    Pity their parents too...

    May god bless them all...

  4. You borrow something you return something. Don't talk too much. The more you talk the worse you get!

    This is ancient teaching, you must return what is not belong to you!

    Wow, you borrow people's thing for so long. Why dun you lend your thing to me for 15 years? Since you can then I also can what. Don't you agree is other people's turn to borrow. Not you anymore!!

  5. Apala lu orang. Gangster kah? Pinjam pinjam la, kena bagi balik lah. Bagi chance orang lain pakai ma...

    Kalau ah long benar benar punya, kamu orang sudah kah hospital atau sudah mati lo....

    siao punya lu orang....

  6. I think the new committee are very responsible for their job. They try their best to take care of Pessoc property. Wasting their own petrol!

    I salute them. To have to deal with samseng who dun read emails, dun pick up phone calls. What else can they do other than go straight to their house? I would do the same thing if people show no sign of returning my things?

    Gang of Thieves! Pity they are not enough number of 40...."Ali Baba and the 40 thieves" they have a king? The indian guy looks like one I think.

  7. Stop quarreling la. Don't bring shame to musicians anymore la.

    Musicians also must have morality okay?
    be fair to everybody,stop using the word senior member.lau eh bo tia tiok ho!lau lang should always show role modal to youngsters.

    if u want people to respect u,why not u also respect others?

  8. What do they mean "Disharmony in State Orchestra"? It is just 4 little thieves refuse to return people's instrument and say all kind of lame excuse. What? Talk rudely when asking it back? What do they expect then, for ignoring people who just wanna get back what they own?

    Probably they got nothing under the skull.

  9. Nobody support you la....

    Better go home and hide in your room la...

  10. A lady whose position in pessoc you not sure of? Don't you got mouth to ask then?

    Silly question, really.

  11. i dont think they have an ounce of common sense at all. if they no longer interested to be with PESSOC again, they should at least have the courtesy to return the instruments. if they r still wanting to be part of the orchestra, then just sign up the form? what's the problem? there's no payment of fees at all? what's there to be so humiliated about for signing up the form? they should feel humiliated for asking the press to express their unreasonable anger and for being so barbaric towards the whole instrument returning drama. and dare they call themselves senior member of PESSOC? arent senior members suppose to be more civilised and responsible instead? i wouldnt call them senior members at all, in other music organizations when we call a person senior that means that person has either help to mentor and help us in every ways without being PAID. i dont think they have earn the respect to be recognised as SENIOR MEMBERs rather should be called old members or ex-members. for reality check, there's plenty in every corner of the world. i am glad the instruments are not in the wrong person's hands. and hopefully we will not hear from this bunch of people creating disharmony in the music society.

  12. Very interesting indeed. A bit of analysis:

    "Bassoonist Khoo Swee Hong claimed that a Pessoc administrator visited her home as well as the homes of two other senior members."


    “She came to see us last Friday, with another lady whose position in Pessoc we aren’t even sure of.

    True. If she had known that Mdm. Khaw, why should she question the identity of the other person who accompanied her? She should trust Mdm. Khaw in carrying out her duty!

    “The bassoon has been with me since 1995 so I don’t understand why they suddenly want it back,” Khoo said.

    Suddenly is such a vulgar word for her to use! She did not even have the correct adverb to describe her expression! She had all the intentions of not to continue as a PESSOC player, and yet she could shamefully say that Mdm. Khaw suddenly wanted it back! Thief!

    “It’s not that I don’t want to return it but the way they have treated me and others who borrowed the state’s instruments is insulting,”

    Hmm... I wonder how had the PESSOC administrators insulted her? Had they push the bassoon up her **s?

  13. Further analysis:

    Below is part of a letter that someone from the PESSOC had sent to the Penang CM and the EXCO concerned. Let's see how these SHAMELESS creatures had shot themselves in thier own feet:

    Dear YAB Tuan Lim Guan Eng and YB Wong Hon Wai,

    We would like to thank YAB Tuan Lim Guan Eng and YB Wong Hon Wai for attempting to find leadership for PESSOC by appointing Datin Sri Irene Yeap as our new Chairman. Unfortunately, the orchestral and choral committee members who represent the members of PESSOC have had great difficulty in contacting our new Chairman since her appointment on the 21st August 2009. Checks with the PESSOC Administrator did not bear any fruit, even she does not have the means of contacting the new Chairperson or Secretary but most surprising is that the office of YB Wong himself does not keep a record of Datin Sri's contact.

    Under what position do these people want to contact the new Administrator? They did not employ the Datin Seri nor did they elected her. At that moment things were not even finalised yet so I feel it right of her not to meet them then.

  14. paragraph 2:

    On the 30th September 2009, the orchestral and choral committee members who sat in the previous management committee received an email from the PESSOC Administrator stating that our new Chairman had invited them for a meeting in Wawasan Open University on the 2nd of October. At the "meeting", which turned out to be a public forum, we discovered that an entirely new board had already been appointed, even before the old committee was dissolved or informed. It was initially unclear what a new board meant, but the Chairman finally clarified that this is likened to a Board of Governors (members of the Board were reluctantly revealed after some prodding), rather than an Executive Committee. This move has effectively removed any voice the members have in decision-making processes, with no representation on this Board. The turnout at this “meeting” was minimal as members were not informed of such a public forum. It is a wonder then, that if the members were not informed, what more the public when this was a supposed forum for the public. At the “meeting”, the Chairman expressed that another meeting will be held but until today we have not had any news or updates on this. It was also requested that a channel of communication be open to the Board. It was the Chairman's promise that this will be brought up to the new board as well as a return in response. Even up to today, we have not heard of anything besides what was put in the newspapers. It is sad and unacceptable that members of PESSOC can only get information on PESSOC itself through the newspapers.

    I feel that the person(s) who had written this letter do(es) not entirely understand the position of the PESSOC. Do they/Does s/he know if the PESSOC is a body registered under the ROS or does the PESSOC come under the purview of the EXCO? If the PESSOC is a registered body with the ROS, then there must be a society constitution that will spell out the functions and duties of everyone in it. Then all members and boards must be dissolved and all the procedures and whatever rites and rituals be done.

    BUT if the PESSOC is under the authority of the EXCO, then it is the power of the EXCO to appoint anyone deemed capable to carry out the duty.

    The newspaper is a correct place to inform the people. The PESSOC belongs to the people so members in there do NOT have any exclusive right to get any news before hand.

  15. Paragraph 3:

    There are other significant changes initiated of immediate concern to the musicians and singers. It was mentioned that the position of Music Director has already been offered to a person, whom the Chairman and Secretary would not name. This person is to redirect the course of PESSOC to new heights of greatness, but will only be offered circa RM3,000 per month for his or her efforts. Only after objections from the floor did the Chairman agree to advertise the Music Director's position publicly, but with only RM3,000 per month offered, this drastically cuts down on potential strong candidates. It is also not yet certain whether the unnamed person who was offered the position declined, whether the offer was retracted, or whether the advertisement will be made solely for the purpose of appearances but with a favoured candidate already in place. The Chairman believes that the hiring process does not concern the PESSOC members and their representatives. Apparently, our combined professional qualifications and experience in years of service and musicianship is of no value to her. There has been nothing to provide confidence on whether or not an advertisement is made, that the selection of the Music Director will be a transparent process.

    They should be glad that there exists a person who is willing to redirect the PESSOC to its real functions with such meagre salary. A handsome sum paid to the immediate past Music Director saw that he only worked half of the year in Penang while went missing in the other half. Can we consider this as a boon to the people of Penang? Cheater.

  16. Paragraph 4:

    The Music Director’s position is of great concern to us members for obvious reasons. We are requesting to the State that if a Music Director is to be appointed, that the present Orchestral and Choral committee be involved in the selection process, just as in any professional orchestra and chorus. The same would apply for the selection of the Orchestra and Choir Conductors, as musical rapport and skill levels are best assessed and understood by the musicians who follow the baton.

    PESSOC is and has never been a professional orchestra. :-p

  17. Paragraph 5:

    Most upsetting is the offer of RM1,000 per month in the renewed contract for a fully qualified full-time conductor (contract attached herein for your kind reference) who was previously offered RM6,500 per month. If, according to the committee, a full-time State Conductor only commands RM1,000 per month, then we wonder how much are the musicians worth? We strongly feel that the State is insulting the music profession as a whole, since it is clear that they feel the administrator should be paid more than trained professionals who make the music happen.

    Why pay more when we can save so much for the same result? Again, has PESSOC ever been a professional orchestra before? Were all musicians paid or only those who sat in the committee? Transparency? I don't think so...

  18. Paragraph 6:

    The Chairman made it clear that the RM80,000 + RM20,000 annual State allocation for PESSOC is grossly insufficient and that more fundraising is needed. The Secretary of PESSOC, Jason Tan, stated that all the plans and proposals of PESSOC had been approved and endorsed by the State and is aligned with State policy. The new administration did not come prepared with an avenue of further communication on this matter. Further emails relayed via the PESSOC administrator indicated that our opinions did not seem to be considered. This was demonstrated this week, when we were informed that PESSOC’s annual Music Camp and Festival will not be held this year, after having been a successful standard event in Penang's calendar for the past 18 years. The first reason provided was that the members' proposal was insufficient - even though the proposal contained the same breadth of information as in previous years, and in any case, was a matter of administration in which the Board is responsible, not the musicians. Other reasons given were that the new management does not have the confidence to carry it out because firstly, there is no conductor, secondly there is no time, and thirdly the financial commitment is too great. This is despite the fact that the members have already been rehearsing the repertoire, and the PESSOC budget is even larger now since they are not paying for a conductor.

    If the for the past 18 years the music workshops were successful, as claimed, PESSOC would have produced hundreds of first class musicians from Penang! But as to what I understand, locals who joined the workshops were made to pay while players imported to fill the gaps that poor local players cannot afford, were paid handsomely.

    There was once that the PESSOC invited and paid for the transportation, food and lodging of players from a southern state to make up the numbers for an orchestra for one so-called successful workshop.

    Successful my foot!

  19. Paragraph 7:

    This clearly shows the incompetency of the Board in organising events. Without interference from the new Chairman and Board, the music camp could have gone on, since we have had the experience of running it for many years. We do have sufficient funds and are well within budget. It is just very clear that the new committee does not align itself with the aims and traditions of PESSOC. As such, we are beginning to question the suitability of the new chairman. We can accept that she is trying to do a good job, but the high-handed, naïve and imprudent manner of her initial actions have truly caused alarm. Her repeated announcements that she does not really want this job and is just doing the State a favour also does not help build trust or support. How can we have clear direction when the Chairman is wishy-washy about her role in the organisation?

    If the old PESSOC committee knew how to spend their budget well, the Penang people would not have to waste RM400,000 X 13 years = RM5,200,000 for sheer nothing as they are today, which the number of loyal, consistent players never exceeded 50 at any one time.

    A chamber orchestra or a full symphony orchestra? Half-filled orchestra more like it. Half-past six!

  20. Paragraph 8:

    Penang is unique where the music scene is concerned, and it is something Penangites are proud of. PESSOC has had a difficult childhood but we, the members, have nursed it carefully and protectively over the years. Ours is the only Malaysian State Orchestra and Chorus that has survived nearly two decades and prospered, where others have failed. Please bear in mind that we are working to make PESSOC a respectable platform to enrich the artistic and cultural diversity of Penang. As such, the festival’s cancellation is most disappointing and really does not bode well for you, having the merit of killing off this music camp in your first term of government.

    Not heard of even in national news! Only published under Northern editions.

    CORRECTION!: PESSOC is not the only Malaysian State Orchestra and Chorus that has survived nearly two decades. There is SONS = Simfoni Orkestra Negeri Sarawak, which has a symphony orchestra, a pop orchestra and a choir too.

  21. Last 2 paragraphs:

    The musicians are eager to know how this new management is going to improve the level of music making and “turn Penang into an international music city” by cutting back on financing and human resources - employing conductors on a part time basis - as proposed by the new committee. Is this in line with the Penang State Government's policies? We wonder if the Penang State Government can also cut back on their budget and at the same time improve on governing performances by working part time.

    We regret that this letter has to be worded so strongly, but we are seeking your help in a state of anxiety. We sincerely hope that your office will make a real effort in resolving this rising crisis in PESSOC and we look forward to your reply, or even better, witness you execute a solution for the situation in an urgent manner.

    Thank you.

    Too tired to comment. You are a better judge.

  22. Thank you! Anonymous. Very good response! Please spread this blog. I hope to see more response from the public!

  23. Politics in music is a sad thing. Still, instruments on loan must be returned one day. Politics or not, when the board changes, changes are bound to occur. It's a mirror Malaysia's current political scene.

    So, if you are a Pessoc member and dislike the changes - just leave.

  24. I think the problem is just because of the change of conductor. Like or dislike is very personal thing. I think they are very wrong by spoiling other people's image just because they don't like the new conductor.

    If the new conductor is Shimano, then they will not make noise anymore. If they like him so much, earning so much and working so little in comparison, why not they just form a new group and hire Shimano? See how long can they survive paying like that.

  25. Once I join music camp last time, they didn't even provide me a proper room for sectional. Ask us to join with other instrument. This is so very unprofessional. And since I don't have a proper room, how they expect us to learn from our tutor then?

  26. Just put yourself into other people's shoe. It is that simple to be a sensible person. You claimed yourself sacrificed so much for pessoc? For attending rehearsals and concerts?

    Why don't you be grateful that you are given a platform to perform and learn and make so many new friends?

    What you all actually want? To be the boss? You are musicians your main job in pessoc is to perform. Not making decisions that you are not asked to!

    Certainly not influencing the young ones to follow your footsteps to further damage their future! Making small bodies to boycott the new management. What good is that?

    So what are the young ones doing right now? Got no orchestra to play, sit at home and grumble like you all role modals?

    You adults had built some reputation that some little damage is not a big deal. What about those youngsters? How could they gain trust from the young generation again? Showing their big face in the paper. Our future of music lies in the hand of young generations. Now who would accept them again besides themselves??

    You all fire the new conductor like that. Actually, what did he do to you? He smash your french horn? Riddiculous. And in the future, how would you face his children and his students etc.... Using all the evil words and all. And finding all lame excuses to cover your dictatorship and control-freakiness. Mere selfish and brainless!

    Moreover, pulling the whole bunch of people to drown with you when you fall into the water. What are you thinking? So the road to hell is not that lonely?

  27. p/s I found the letter to our CM on the facebook of 'I love PESSOC, do you? Do read more there.

    Shooter, telling in this blog page does not send your message to them. Tell then on their beloved facebook will.

    Cheers! Viva la PESSOC!

  28. Here is the address

  29. Well.....

    The same conductor for the two orchestras in Penang.....

    Very soon, only one orchestra will be around.

    Guess which?

  30. Giving this job and some financial support for "the other" conductor and players... I don't see any problem.

    It is because, "the other" conductor never gets PAID! But what is the result? a big orchestra with the number of performance is way ahead of the old pessoc. That's totally odd...

    If you ask me, I will raise both hands and feet to agree the idea that we take not only "the other" conductor but we also take players from "the other" orchestra. What's the problem? I don't see them acting rude while the so called senior pessoc member insulting them and their conductor each and every day, each and every second until they walk their way into the grave.

    That is how they like to take it. Who cares?

    All other people care about is penang have good music to listen, all musicians live in peace. Not one or two or one hundred orchestras existing. What's the big deal?

    Penang government is not like PETRONAS who could hire the entire MPO. Because, PETRONAS earn by exporting the petrol. But penangites, each and every penangites pay taxes to go into Shimano's pocket for conducting around 20 over players, two hours per week. As far as I know, none of the players being paid too!

    If the old pessoc member feel sorry for Shimano to lost his job. Why don't they hire him. His salary is 6500 right? Say there are 20 of them who support him. So everybody comes out RM325 per month so he can stay. Pretty good isn't it?

    So Anonymous on 25th feb, don't you think it is a very good idea. So we still got two orchestra. Let them try how it is like living like "the other" orchestra. Well, it is fair taking turns. No?

  31. Hi, I'm Anonymous of Feb 22.

    I have been referred to read a facebook page entitled "I Love PESSOC, do you?" It's all very interesting...

    Do join us there for more fun :-)

  32. Dear Shooter and Anonymous, please double check and confirm your information pertaining to "the other never gets paid". Are you sure no funds, no venue being subsidised to "the other" orchestra for decades? Are you so ignorant or intentionally deceive the public. "each and every penangites pay taxes to go into Shimano's pocket for conducting around 20 over players, two hours per week" Wow! no comment on 'each and every...into Shimano's pocket..' but only 2 hours per week? You can only bluff the ones who don't know the truth.

  33. Is this where Penang music has headed - a bunch of people (for the most part) anonymously attacking others? If one has any sense of fair play or honour, one would at least sign your own name to your negative comments.

    I'll also note that we have someone here who is verbose with his/her criticism, but can't even spell "Madam Khor" correctly - the same person who resorts to indecent language while saying that the word "suddenly" is vulgar.

    The word "shame" has been used much here, and it's time for these anonymous critics to look themselves in the mirror when using it. But then by nature of people who prefer to lurk in the dark, to sneak around "behind the stage", it is not surprising that they decline to come to the light, where all mirrors reflect.

  34. its not so complicated.....
    borrow and return , we learn that when we were very very young, i learnt that, and now i revise it once more.

    thanks for the free lesson....

    No doubt, I wrote another anonymous comment .

  35. Oh people of the ex-pessoc army.

    You people scared? So you try to provoke people to reveal their identity? If they are at your standard of mind, then they will follow your "order". Too bad, they are higher than you people, so you can't provoke us okay?

    You know like for example: Imagine you are a puppy, bark and whine at human. That human just saying "cute puppy...jump! jump! jump! go chase balls...hahahaha...." and the puppy is thinking "Come on human kid. Let's bend down and bark like my equal!" The result: Kid can provoke a pup and it can't be vise versa.

    (hey no offense fellow dogs. That I borrow your character on these folks are much better. Best friends for human!)

    So....I decide to call myself shooter. So what! I don't bark, mind you. You can get along on your own.

    And...dogs are mostly brave. Chicken fits nicer!

  36. Nice one! Shooter!

    bok-bok-bok-bok (chicken sound)

    I hope you can imagine.

  37. dear AF (the picture showing a violinist?)....

    People playing at you, you also dunno ah? So pity!

    You people have no idea how many people read the article in newspaper? Let me tell you...

    Mr A :" Hey, you saw that article or not? Actually those instruments is who one har?"

    Mr B :" eh I know I know. I go ask around d. The instruments belong to pessoc, the organization one."

    Mr A :"Walau eh. Borrow people things until need people to go house to claim back ah? boay kian siao ah? adoi...."

    Mr B :" Yalah yalah. Mark their face properly ah. Next time dun lent anything to them. I see them also run lo."

    Mr A :" Si loh....Their parents also one. Kids dunno how to teach. Then mai seh la...Seh lok lai kien siao."

    Mr B :"Pity them also la."

    Of course AF, you won't hear this. This is discussed among outsiders. Us chinese society don't do things like this. Our chinese teaching is not like this. This kinda action basically throw away your family name. Not trustworthy is a big crime in our teaching. Do respect.

  38. I will note once again that I'm the only one honest enough to stand accountable for my comments - surely a trait that any society, Chinese or otherwise, would encourage. First time I've heard that the "higher" position - and apparently not one of the "chicken" - is to hide one's identity and not take responsibility for your position.

    Lurk as you will in your dingy shadows, I can only hope that the fair reader will assess it as such, and decide in turn whether it deserves the "respect" you so imagine it possesses.

    These are my final comments on the matter.

  39. What was I asking you to respect is about the matter on returning the instruments that you borrow. Return them WILLINGLY! If you decide to leave pessoc, return what you borrow! NUTS!

    People who stand by them also the same. AF Chicken Nuts! (wanna add some more nicknames? And you think I will believe you will drop this matter?)

    Those people who borrow and don't return willingly some more barking mad at the press. They will bring their crime to their graves.

    And Mr AF...I still don't know your name (Alien F**ker? Almightly Fisherman? or whatever...) Since you like initials so much. Me who decide to call myself shooter....errr ok, two words like you...true shooter then. So I will write TS then.

    Chat with you soon!

  40. I've said all I need to say on the matter, as any further clarification is available by contacting the people in the article directly.

    However, I found that TS was quite right in the identity issue: I didn't realize what my updated Blogger settings were, and I am hereby correcting that. I have to stand by principles, after all, lest I lend credence to some potty mouth "chicken theory".

  41. i'm th anonymous on April 1st. Shooter and ANONYMOUS, if u have nothing stronger to support ur devious view point, u'd better keep ur mouths shut. I bet your parents are worse than robbers and prostitutes. They've got no sense of morality and dignity hence raised children like you all. Don't you ever call yourselves chinese because you'll only bring shame to Chinese ethnicity. The essence of Chinese teaching stress on courtesy, rightousness and dignity but what have your parents taught u?oh.. hohoho "F" more and produce more jerks like you!! or probably u spent too much time with ur beloved maestro n learned nothing but "barking" and snatching

  42. nani nani boo booApril 5, 2010 at 9:13 AM

    so your parents taught you how to bow to japanese and raise your middle finger to a 70 year old conductor who dedicated more than half of his life to music society? That is really interesting anonymous april syt the fool!

    Coutesy, rightousness and dignity? Oh really, I see you judging people with that standard but your herd of people.